The exercise of power is determined by thousands of interactions between the world of the powerful and that of the powerless, all the more so because these worlds are never divided by a sharp line: everyone has a small part of himself in both - Vaclav Havel
The following video is a sleek ad for up market apartments called EshkolHeightsin an unspecified settlement in the hills ofJerusalem.
The ad clearly targets 'foreign residents', presumably mainly Americans (the phone number is American e.g.)
On Anthony Loewenstein's post a commenter with the moniker 'palestinian' asks:
are “foreigners” who are not Jewish allowed to live here? What kind of ownership ie. deed would they have?
Push the question a little harder: would rich American Palestinians be able to successfully apply for ownership or tenancy of an Eshkol apartment? Answers on a post card in the comment section, please...
Factoid: turns out that the music to the promo which has a decidedly Celtic twang to it, is the theme from 'Last of the Mohicans', at least according to commenter 'Strelnikov'...
As a point of information this is not a West Bank settlement but part of (East) Jerusalem, the capital of Israel and annexed since 1967.
The status of a non-Israeli purchasing an apartment there would be similar to a non-American buying in Washington or an Israeli purchasing in London. The matter of residency and citizenship is a separate question to that of property purchase.
hmmm - I wasn't aware of that Daniel. Is there a whitization of Washington or of London policy in place similar to the Judaization of Jerusalem policy, in place in occupied Palestine?
Anyhow, Comrade Strelnikov is correct, that is the theme music to the film version of "The Last of the Mohicans".
The celtic twang portion of the theme song kicks in at approximately the 3:30 second mark of this video link.
As someone who loves 10 minutes from Jerusalem and drives there most days, I have not a clue what you are talking about.
Between 1967 and the year 2000 the Jewish population of Jerusalem decreased in relation to its Muslim population. Israel has an open property market and anyone wishing to can buy or sell their home.
I should note that among Muslims this is often not the case and there have been cases of Arabs wishing to sell their houses to Jews who were illegally punished by their own brothers.
If there was such a policy, it would be mentioned in official government documents. I invite you to find me proof of this. Incidentally, if there was such a policy, carried out legally and peacefully, nobody would be happier than I.
Some encouragement is given to students to rent and buy in Jerusalem, but as you probably don't know an Arab student is equally entitled to this.
I have no opinion regarding the music, but if your knowledge in at an equally high level, it's probably Marc Bolan.
I've gotta say that I was hoping you'd fly by and shed some light on the exact location of this eyesore: 'Eshkol Heights' must be the name of the development, not the locality. So it's in illegally occupied East Jerusalem.
You claim a Palestinian would be allowed to take up residency/ownership of an Eshkol apartment and I'll take that at face value. The difference between the proverbial 'Yehudi from Brooklyn' and 'Ahmed from Staten Island' is that even if Ahmed's granddad was expelled from around that area in either 1948 or 1967 he would not be able to obtain full rights whereas Yehudi is basically guaranteed citizenship. I call that racist.
1. Eshkol Heights, according to the clip, is between Ramat Eshkol and French Hill.
2. I spoke about ownership, nor residency. As far as residency is concerned Israel, like most countries has laws which are not connected to land ownership.
3. I was born in England and my children including 11-year-old Ariel who's never been there is entitled to British citizenship and to live there. His best friend Ariel Schumacher has no such rights, but does hold a Canadian passport. I guess you'd we're living in a racist world.
4. You are right that Palestinians that left Israel in 1948 are not automatically entitled to Israeli citizenship, in the same way that a Jew is.This is because while the Law of Return applies to Jews it does not apply to non-Jews. You may think this is unfair, but it has nothing to do with race. I am not a believer in crackpot 19th century racial theories, but if I were I'd point out that both Jews and Arab are racially Semites.
Doubtless, you know that during the holocaust many Jews escaped Europe and set sail for Israel (Palestine then) only to be refused entry and sent back, often to gas chambers.
As a response one of the first acts of David Ben-Gurion as PM in 1948 was to legislate the Law of Return so that any Jew at any time would always have an opportunity to emigrate to the only Jewish state in the world.
A similar law was not passed allowing any Christian, Moslem etc to attain automatic citizenship. I think the reason why is obvious, but if you wish I'll explain in a future posting.
5. Needless to say, Jews who left or were forced out of Arab countries at the same time lost their citizenship and often their homes too. In most cases they are not allowed back.
I'm not saying that "two wrongs make a right." I'm saying that the population exchange was quite logical and in the context of the world in 1945, normal and even moral.
6. Before you say that that was "hasbara", I concede the point.
Arab countries 1948-1973 Main articles: Antisemitism in the Arab world, Jewish Exodus from Arab Lands, and 1948 Palestinian exodus From 1948 until the early 1970s between 800,000 to 1,000,000 Mizrachi and Sephardic Jews either fled from their homes or were expelled from Arab and Islamic countries; 260,000 reached Israel between 1948–1951, and 600,000 by 1972.[31][32][33] The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The Jews of Egypt and Libya were forcibly expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left as a result of a hostile atmosphere and growing political insecurity. Most were forced to abandon their property.[32] By 2002, these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population.[33]
We do indeed. Most countries have some racist aspects to their immigration policies. But Israel's systematic favouring of one group over another does really take the biscuit. Imagine a Britain that by Law would be made up of True Britons only: that would have to be run by the BNP/National Front.
You may think this is unfair, but it has nothing to do with race. I am not a believer in crackpot 19th century racial theories, but if I were I'd point out that both Jews and Arab are racially Semites.
Oh dear, I really thought you were a tad more sophisticated than that: having to resort to 'it's not a race so it can't be racist'. Look up the dictionary definition of 'racism', Daniel. Here the discrimination is along both ethnic and religious lines, a clearer case of conforming to the definition of racism is hard to find.
"I'm not saying that "two wrongs make a right." I'm saying that the population exchange was quite logical and in the context of the world in 1945, normal and even moral."
Sigh. Here's Yehouda Shenhav on the 'Arab Jewish refugee' claim. It seems that claim was dropped by the Israeli/US government donkeys ago.
Greg, would you deny that the Jews were pushed out of Arab lands or do you think that having been indigenous they just decided to up and leave for the hell of it and go to Israel?
"[...] they just decided to up and leave for the hell of it and go to Israel?"
Richard, did you read the Shenhav essay I linked to above? According to Shenhav most of those 'refugees' vehemently opposed that term, insisting that they were committed Zionists and came to Israel because they wanted too: sounds plausible to me...
Gert, that just isn't true. Why on earth would they leave their businesses, properties etc. to go to a comparatively underdeveloped country to start again with nothing and have to learn a new language? You should meet some of these people and hear it from them.
Richard, I think that you need to re-read the thread. I didn't deny that any jews were "pushed out of Arab lands", you denied that the Arabs were ethnically cleansed.
"What happened to the arabs wasn't ethnic cleansing" - richard millet - comment No 8 at 8:45.
Greg, i wasn't being sarcastic. I wouldn't be over such a serious issue. One thing Gert taught me is that there is no room for gimmickry on this issue. But what I would put to you is that the allegation of ethnic cleansing is propaganda. It is valid progaganda as why wouldn't the Arabs try to present such a case. I don't blame them but it is lies all the same. There has never been any proof of a policy of ethnic cleansing and you cannot prove it either. Ask yourself why the Arab archives on 1947-1949 remain closed.
"...I don't blame them but it is lies all the same.There has never been any proof of a policy of ethnic cleansing and you cannot prove it either. Ask yourself why the Arab archives on 1947-1949 remain closed.
Some time back, another Zionist made a similar statement, and demanded proof.
If you get a chance, you might want to read this post, and the associated links to it.
I think that it does prove the case, but let me know if you think it doesn't.
I don't know what arab archives would have to do with any of this though. .
"And Gert is a little stuck with no evidence. Take no notice."
Stop playing l'ingenue when it comes to evidence of extensive ethnic cleansing: you know as damn well as I do where and what that evidence is. For 'not-a-Zionist' you are remarkably keen on denying any wrong doing by Zionism. With Hoffman and Alderman you now belong to an exclusive group (of three) that believes 'there was no ethnic cleansing, only a few regrettable expulsions'. Even Daniel Marks doesn't believe it.
It would have been impossible to create a predominantly Jewish state without extensively driving off those who lived there before European Zionists started arriving en masse.
I feel like I'm talking to an 'expert on Roswell'...
Hi Greg That isn't evidence of ethnic cleansing. That is evidence of expelling some people as a military tactic. You can twist it as much as you like but it won't fit into the ethnic cleansing box.
As for Arab archives you have to ask yourself why they remain shut. What are they hiding? Where are the worldwide calls to have them opened so we can see what orders were given by Arab leaders to the Palestinians?
And Gert, i don't deny any wrongdoing by Zionism but i am denying ethnic cleansing until you can give some evidence. Until then you are just another propagandist.
22 Comments:
As a point of information this is not a West Bank settlement but part of (East) Jerusalem, the capital of Israel and annexed since 1967.
The status of a non-Israeli purchasing an apartment there would be similar to a non-American buying in Washington or an Israeli purchasing in London. The matter of residency and citizenship is a separate question to that of property purchase.
hmmm - I wasn't aware of that Daniel. Is there a whitization of Washington or of London policy in place similar to the Judaization of Jerusalem policy, in place in occupied Palestine?
Anyhow, Comrade Strelnikov is correct, that is the theme music to the film version of "The Last of the Mohicans".
The celtic twang portion of the theme song kicks in at approximately the 3:30 second mark of this video link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWGRnHOhGiE&feature=related
It is a good song - pity that a group of racists are able to appropriate it in order to promote their apartment complex.
.
The Judaization of Jerusalem policy
Greg,
As someone who loves 10 minutes from Jerusalem and drives there most days, I have not a clue what you are talking about.
Between 1967 and the year 2000 the Jewish population of Jerusalem decreased in relation to its Muslim population. Israel has an open property market and anyone wishing to can buy or sell their home.
I should note that among Muslims this is often not the case and there have been cases of Arabs wishing to sell their houses to Jews who were illegally punished by their own brothers.
If there was such a policy, it would be mentioned in official government documents. I invite you to find me proof of this. Incidentally, if there was such a policy, carried out legally and peacefully, nobody would be happier than I.
Some encouragement is given to students to rent and buy in Jerusalem, but as you probably don't know an Arab student is equally entitled to this.
I have no opinion regarding the music, but if your knowledge in at an equally high level, it's probably Marc Bolan.
Daniel:
I've gotta say that I was hoping you'd fly by and shed some light on the exact location of this eyesore: 'Eshkol Heights' must be the name of the development, not the locality. So it's in illegally occupied East Jerusalem.
You claim a Palestinian would be allowed to take up residency/ownership of an Eshkol apartment and I'll take that at face value. The difference between the proverbial 'Yehudi from Brooklyn' and 'Ahmed from Staten Island' is that even if Ahmed's granddad was expelled from around that area in either 1948 or 1967 he would not be able to obtain full rights whereas Yehudi is basically guaranteed citizenship. I call that racist.
1. Eshkol Heights, according to the clip, is between Ramat Eshkol and French Hill.
2. I spoke about ownership, nor residency. As far as residency is concerned Israel, like most countries has laws which are not connected to land ownership.
3. I was born in England and my children including 11-year-old Ariel who's never been there is entitled to British citizenship and to live there. His best friend Ariel Schumacher has no such rights, but does hold a Canadian passport. I guess you'd we're living in a racist world.
4. You are right that Palestinians that left Israel in 1948 are not automatically entitled to Israeli citizenship, in the same way that a Jew is.This is because while the Law of Return applies to Jews it does not apply to non-Jews. You may think this is unfair, but it has nothing to do with race. I am not a believer in crackpot 19th century racial theories, but if I were I'd point out that both Jews and Arab are racially Semites.
Doubtless, you know that during the holocaust many Jews escaped Europe and set sail for Israel (Palestine then) only to be refused entry and sent back, often to gas chambers.
As a response one of the first acts of David Ben-Gurion as PM in 1948 was to legislate the Law of Return so that any Jew at any time would always have an opportunity to emigrate to the only Jewish state in the world.
A similar law was not passed allowing any Christian, Moslem etc to attain automatic citizenship. I think the reason why is obvious, but if you wish I'll explain in a future posting.
5. Needless to say, Jews who left or were forced out of Arab countries at the same time lost their citizenship and often their homes too. In most cases they are not allowed back.
I'm not saying that "two wrongs make a right." I'm saying that the population exchange was quite logical and in the context of the world in 1945, normal and even moral.
6. Before you say that that was "hasbara", I concede the point.
Gert, do you know the difference between an "exchange of population" and "ethnic cleansing"?
Here Greg from Wikipedia:
Arab countries 1948-1973
Main articles: Antisemitism in the Arab world, Jewish Exodus from Arab Lands, and 1948 Palestinian exodus
From 1948 until the early 1970s between 800,000 to 1,000,000 Mizrachi and Sephardic Jews either fled from their homes or were expelled from Arab and Islamic countries; 260,000 reached Israel between 1948–1951, and 600,000 by 1972.[31][32][33] The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The Jews of Egypt and Libya were forcibly expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left as a result of a hostile atmosphere and growing political insecurity. Most were forced to abandon their property.[32] By 2002, these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population.[33]
What happened to the arabs wasn't ethnic cleansing, what happened to the Jews from Arab lands was. And that isn't "hasbara".
Daniel:
"I guess you'd we're living in a racist world.
We do indeed. Most countries have some racist aspects to their immigration policies. But Israel's systematic favouring of one group over another does really take the biscuit. Imagine a Britain that by Law would be made up of True Britons only: that would have to be run by the BNP/National Front.
You may think this is unfair, but it has nothing to do with race. I am not a believer in crackpot 19th century racial theories, but if I were I'd point out that both Jews and Arab are racially Semites.
Oh dear, I really thought you were a tad more sophisticated than that: having to resort to 'it's not a race so it can't be racist'. Look up the dictionary definition of 'racism', Daniel. Here the discrimination is along both ethnic and religious lines, a clearer case of conforming to the definition of racism is hard to find.
"I'm not saying that "two wrongs make a right." I'm saying that the population exchange was quite logical and in the context of the world in 1945, normal and even moral."
Sigh. Here's Yehouda Shenhav on the 'Arab Jewish refugee' claim. It seems that claim was dropped by the Israeli/US government donkeys ago.
Hmmm,
"What happened to the arabs wasn't ethnic cleansing, what happened to the Jews from Arab lands was. And that isn't "hasbara"."
I think someone has stumbled on to the difference - when "we" do it, it isn't ethnic cleansing, when "they" do it, it is.
snicker - sounds like Zio-logic to me.
Greg, would you deny that the Jews were pushed out of Arab lands or do you think that having been indigenous they just decided to up and leave for the hell of it and go to Israel?
Richard:
"[...] they just decided to up and leave for the hell of it and go to Israel?"
Richard, did you read the Shenhav essay I linked to above? According to Shenhav most of those 'refugees' vehemently opposed that term, insisting that they were committed Zionists and came to Israel because they wanted too: sounds plausible to me...
Gert, that just isn't true. Why on earth would they leave their businesses, properties etc. to go to a comparatively underdeveloped country to start again with nothing and have to learn a new language? You should meet some of these people and hear it from them.
Richard, I think that you need to re-read the thread. I didn't deny that any jews were "pushed out of Arab lands", you denied that the Arabs were ethnically cleansed.
"What happened to the arabs wasn't ethnic cleansing" - richard millet - comment No 8 at 8:45.
Or were you being sarcastic, when you said that?
Greg, i wasn't being sarcastic. I wouldn't be over such a serious issue. One thing Gert taught me is that there is no room for gimmickry on this issue. But what I would put to you is that the allegation of ethnic cleansing is propaganda. It is valid progaganda as why wouldn't the Arabs try to present such a case. I don't blame them but it is lies all the same. There has never been any proof of a policy of ethnic cleansing and you cannot prove it either. Ask yourself why the Arab archives on 1947-1949 remain closed.
Greg:
Millett is a little stuck between 'From Time Immemorial', Benny Morris and the good old 'Land without a People' myth. Take no notice.
And Gert is a little stuck with no evidence. Take no notice.
Richard:
"...I don't blame them but it is lies all the same.There has never been any proof of a policy of ethnic cleansing and you cannot prove it either. Ask yourself why the Arab archives on 1947-1949 remain closed.
Some time back, another Zionist made a similar statement, and demanded proof.
If you get a chance, you might want to read this post, and the associated links to it.
I think that it does prove the case, but let me know if you think it doesn't.
I don't know what arab archives would have to do with any of this though.
.
Richard:
"And Gert is a little stuck with no evidence. Take no notice."
Stop playing l'ingenue when it comes to evidence of extensive ethnic cleansing: you know as damn well as I do where and what that evidence is. For 'not-a-Zionist' you are remarkably keen on denying any wrong doing by Zionism. With Hoffman and Alderman you now belong to an exclusive group (of three) that believes 'there was no ethnic cleansing, only a few regrettable expulsions'. Even Daniel Marks doesn't believe it.
It would have been impossible to create a predominantly Jewish state without extensively driving off those who lived there before European Zionists started arriving en masse.
I feel like I'm talking to an 'expert on Roswell'...
Hi Greg
That isn't evidence of ethnic cleansing. That is evidence of expelling some people as a military tactic. You can twist it as much as you like but it won't fit into the ethnic cleansing box.
As for Arab archives you have to ask yourself why they remain shut. What are they hiding? Where are the worldwide calls to have them opened so we can see what orders were given by Arab leaders to the Palestinians?
And Gert, i don't deny any wrongdoing by Zionism but i am denying ethnic cleansing until you can give some evidence. Until then you are just another propagandist.
Richard:
...or when refugees aren't expellees. Nice play with words.
You're basically on your own with this. Believe what you like.
IMPORTANT UPDATE
I was in the Ramat Eshkol neighborhood this morning, had to drive the old trouble and strife to an Emunah educational.
Anyway, we gave Lisa Marcus (Geoff's wife) a lift and I asked her if she knew where the aforementioned project is situated. She said she had no idea.
I shall keep you informed of any future developments!
Daniel
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